masseffect

咁我想問, 個PM 無能係因為唔識寫code 定佢無IT相關知識
而家個樓主話個PM無能係因為 0 coding PM
你贊成 ...
kennyleunghk 發表於 2019-2-13 14:41

我幾時有贊成過？師兄你係睇錯左？

其實道理就好簡單，唔識嗰樣唔好搞嗰樣
道理簡單但實際上係好難實行
對於TECHNICAL 人員嚟講，呢個就係佢地成日要面對嘅問題
通常啲人嘅不滿就係咁，亦都唔係只係針對PM

scharnhorst

sai氣, 想既得利益者反省自己夠唔夠料, 同叫父幹出身既人一定要由低做起咪一樣. 底層只會變更低, software house, cad house 大6印度大L把, 又平又快又錯, 咪啱用囖. 成日只識要求上司有料但又想係個奴隸制下食飯, 美國南北戰爭後廢除奴隸制都要搵其他人做奴隸啦.  計我話做人畢業都廿幾歲, 做幾年都三十, 都要識認命架啦. 呀姐洗碟都有2萬一個月, 你仲去寫code咪證明有奴隸思想, 收奴隸價都正常啦!
#曲

kennyleunghk

一個 Technical Manager 唔識/冇時間自己寫 Code ，真係唔緊要

但一定要識「用口寫 Code」，呢點都做唔到 ...
hihihi123hk 發表於 2019-2-13 15:18

我唔太認同你嘅用口寫曲, 我會話用非coding 嘅IT知識管理個project

以我經驗, 係IT 行業嘅PM 最最最重要係 project management skill 同development methodology 嘅認知, 而d development methodology 其係都係基於project management.
所以PM == "PM" + "PM" + "PM"
無論dsdm atern, agile等等methodologies, 一堆都係management 嘅principles. 而我之前都有講, 哩類新嘅method 重點都落係deployment 上面, 點解?
以DSDM為例, 開頭define 好晒d roles, PM 個岡位就係協調同管理, business analyst 制定requirement specification, technical 果邊solution developer 負責技術指標, 決定做到做唔到, 做晒合理分工
再用MosCoW 定system development must have wouldn't have 等, 再跟住用timeboxing 決定d system 咩時間開發同做testing.
定期嘅會議, 各個stakeholder 會會報討論, 比如business analyst 提出嘅requirements technical 果邊有constains 做唔到等, 又比如決定某個system changes 會唔會加入去下個timebox. 哩D 係project management skills 而唔係programming sills!!!!

PM跟本完完全全無需要coding skills!!!! 係完全無需要! 佢地要做嘅係要成功地apply 個methodology 去個project 同埋做好risk management 令到唔會出現project failure
但搞清楚, 唔識寫code != 唔係IT人
再講多次, coding 只係佔IT project 入面一小部份

香港d programmer 其中一個大問題就係, 以為coding 就係成個世界
coding 勁係個優勢, 但PM 嘅technique index係management 唔係coding

有d係人做database architecture design (logical modeling)嘅, 唔使打code, 咁佢係咪唔係IT人?

Steve Jobs 就係樓主所講果種 0 coding 淨係用鬧嘅做project 嘅PM
當其時好多係佢手下做事嘅programmer/ developer 都好唔鐘意佢, 覺得佢只會提出D 無可能做到嘅requirements

xader

同意, but, however
都係果句, 乜差野0 code PM, 我真係唔覺得有咩問題
應該話, 唸住一定要識coding ...
kennyleunghk 發表於 2019-2-13 10:55

如果個PM估出黎錯, 係PM問題
如果個PM同你development team 傾出黎, 結果meet 唔到timebox, 咁就係你地coding 嘅問題
>>實際野唔講, 一味講理論野, 我就有理論野又有實際野同你講喎
>>實際野:
>>你交俾 developer 做? 個 developer 都係入左黎一年半年, 可能仲係未熟哂成套 system , 仲要 D doc
>>唔齊 (唔好講 software 啦, infrastructure 的咪又係一樣), domain knowledge 又少過你, 佢點
>>estimate 到 change size?
>>
>>理論野:
>>個波咁樣推哂俾人又幾好睇架喎
>>原來 effort estimation 係 developer 做?
>>你不如求其係一個 jd 睇下有邊個 developer post 會叫你做 estimation?

kennyleunghk

如果個PM估出黎錯, 係PM問題
如果個PM同你development team 傾出黎, 結果meet 唔到timebox, 咁就係你地c ...
xader 發表於 2019-2-13 17:54

    做唔到唔講? project planning 果時唔知個developer 能力?
MosCoW無define 邊d 係must have should have can have wouldn't have?
成條team 得一個developer? 明知個develop 無能力寫到而assign 個function 落個timebox 度? 所以個PM就要識coding 做埋developer 果份? 咁不如唔好要個pm 啦, 本沒倒置
負責人寫code 果班搞唔掂要個pm 幫你地寫埋code, 人地本黎就唔係負摃揼曲嘅, 跟手小佢地 0 coding PM.......
各個role有自己responsibilities 原來叫推個波俾人

間公司無做好documentation 令到D programmer 能力不足所以個PM要做埋佢地果份??? 乜野搞笑理論? D 野錯所以個PM就要錯落去叫實際????
呀developer 就可以入黎一年半載仲未搞清個system, 哦個PM 就"唔" 可以入黎一年半載仲未搞清個system.........
失敬失敬, 怪唔得知有樓主呢d post 出黎鬧d pm.....

ki_cat

回復 53 #kennyleunghk

吓,我唔係果行,唔關事.
但睇過訪問,見Steve jobs叫係人一定要學下寫code
唔駛寫同唔識寫係兩件事.

https://youtu.be/spy2A6MDAvA

via HKEPC Reader for Android

kennyleunghk

回復 kennyleunghk

吓,我唔係果行,唔關事.
但睇過訪問,見Steve jobs叫係人一定要學下寫code


https://you ...
ki_cat 發表於 2019-2-13 18:11

佢叫人學寫code 代表乜?
無人學寫code......邊個幫佢做programming....
李家誠話唔會撤資....跟手開價賣百佳.........

ki_cat

回復 57 #kennyleunghk

佢話每人都要學,個人會有邏輯d
以前創辦apple,我唸佢點會唔識

唔駛同唔識係兩件事

via HKEPC Reader for Android

xader

我唔太認同你嘅用口寫曲, 我會話用非coding 嘅IT知識管理個project

以我經驗, 係IT 行業嘅PM 最最最重要 ...
kennyleunghk 發表於 2019-2-13 17:17

1. 無論dsdm atern, agile等等methodologies, 一堆都係management 嘅principles. 而我之前都有講, 哩類新嘅method 重點都落係deployment 上面, 點解?
>>係囉, 點解呢?
>>等你回, 再覆

2. 定期嘅會議, 各個stakeholder 會會報討論, 比如business analyst 提出嘅requirements technical 果邊有constains 做唔到等, 又比如決定某個system changes 會唔會加入去下個timebox. 哩D 係project management skills 而唔係programming sills!!!!
>>唔好意思, 你講緊咩野? stakeholder 會會報討論係會報 D 咩?
>>business analyst 提出嘅............ 好老實, 呢 D 唔洗 PM 去處理, 你有無做過真 IT 的 Project?

3.香港d programmer 其中一個大問題就係, 以為coding 就係成個世界
coding 勁係個優勢, 但PM 嘅technique index係management 唔係coding
>>唔好意思, 你有無睇頭先我地的討論點?
>>我地講緊的係你所謂的 KPI 其實係 misrepresentation
>>好多係 project succeeded but problems remain, 而呢樣野, PM 當然唔 Care, 都唔係我果個 side
>>的野

3.1.再講多次, coding 只係佔IT project 入面一小部份
>>所以點樣? 所以唔洗 coding? 唔洗知 architecture? 咩都唔洗知, 淨係拎住 PMP, PRINCE 做人?
>>PMP, PRINCE 幾時咁樣教?


4. 有d係人做database architecture design (logical modeling)嘅, 唔使打code, 咁佢係咪唔係IT人?
>>唔回啦, 睇我 #33 A1
>>不過補多樣野, 你睇清楚而家社會仲有幾多 post 做 modeling design 先

5.Steve Jobs 就係樓主所講果種 0 coding 淨係用鬧嘅做project 嘅PM
當其時好多係佢手下做事嘅programmer/ developer 都好唔鐘意佢, 覺得佢只會提出D 無可能做到嘅requirements
>>你睇清楚佢係鬧咩野先? 佢係用 User angle 喎, 呢個角度唔包係 Project Management 架喎
>>如果你要用返 Project Management 果個角度睇, 佢係 User 喎

總結
其實好簡單, 原來而家的 PM 就係拎住PMP 或者 PRINCE 果套, 就覺得 Soft Eng Project 照用, 就會解決到一切問題
不過真係唔好意思, 都係果句, Project succeeded, Problems remain

xader

佢叫人學寫code 代表乜?
無人學寫code......邊個幫佢做programming....
李家誠話唔會撤資....跟手開價賣 ...
kennyleunghk 發表於 2019-2-13 18:17

    其實好簡單, 就係我話果樣野, 你唔一定要識做哂, 但係你要揾到個人幫你做哂佢
就係咁簡單, 不過問題係, 你點樣揾到果個人? 唔識果樣野可以揾到?