標題: 突發奇想 "Lotus Project(蓮花計劃)" [打印本頁]

---

作者: valleybok    時間: 2008-12-25 02:33     標題: 突發奇想 "Lotus Project(蓮花計劃)"

今天是平安夜,但最近我腦袋中就有一個念頭在想在想,我想不通~今晚就將我的奇想說出來吧!
最近我常有一個問題,Linux桌面真的比Windows差嗎?如果用技術來說,肯定不是.但為何遲遲未能令用戶垂青?
之前我還有點難理解.最近我看一篇文章,是比較Linux套件的優與缺.為何Ubuntu會這樣突飛猛進呢?
是不是技術上和畫面上給人一種震撼呢?答案是"NO"...那為何會長期深得使用者喜愛呢?

原來發現...就是"多一點"...什麼多一點呢?就是技術上雖然全都不是自己研發...但在使用上就是稱心一點..
考慮桌面的細節就是多一點,那為何openSUSE會比下去呢?就是"太多了"...為何一套技術超班,但仍要落後呢?
就是...東西多~難以各方兼容,要顧及Gnome就會失去KDE的一些配合研發...Ubuntu用100%來處理Gnome細節.
而openSUSE最多只能用50%來處理Gnome,另外還要兼顧KDE...亦有更多時候還要研發新東西...
所以非正式調查當中,除了大大有名的測試王"Fedora"之後,最多出現問題竟然就是openSUSE...
我看下來也覺得非常痛心,openSUSE的優越技術足以擊敗任何對手?為何會這樣?就是"太多了"

那好了~那和Windows相比又如何呢?說實在的...硬件支援上這東西Linux真的完全落下風...裝一次系統已經麻煩多多.
你想想又有幾個裝完後仍有心情用下去,再說Linux版本眾多...很多站不住腳的~都會左試右用,始終未能更進一步了解系統.
那大家又會問...那又跟Linux有什麼關係?Driver始終不能單靠社區的黑箱研發...那我們又為何不去避重就輕呢?
怎麼不走APPLE路線?APPLE為何成功?就是一個字"COOL"...令人眼前一亮的感覺...事實上他不一定技術超群.
他也是和Ubuntu一樣...為使用者考慮更多一點,但也沒有令使用者煩惱的經驗...

可能大家會說Linux的特性是什麼?就是"Free"...這意思不是代表免費...而是代表自由...何為自由?
就是什麼東西都能選擇,但...大家知不知WINDOWS/APPLE最成功之道在那?就是"不給使用者選擇"
怎麼我會這樣說?就是LINUX的共通病就是"令人無所適從"究竟Ubuntu好還是openSUSE好.
這議題令人好像進入迷宮一樣苦惱,為何我們不能替使用者考慮多點?
桌面市場的道路就是"不用使用者為選擇而煩惱"這是人性,就是一種慣性.

而現眼下就有一片道路可走,可試."Netbook"2008年電腦超新星.低價流動性高,奪取了不少使用者的歡心.
有人會問Netbook開始的時候也是自帶Linux,現眼下也失敗了...原因何在呀?
我認為...根本沒一間廠認為桌面Linux是真正有技術有潛力的系統...
好像ASUS,Acer的弄到Linux像玩具多於像系統,HP就更離普,自帶SUSE但沒有技術支援.更像亂找一個上來一樣.
怎樣沒一間廠認認真真對待Linux的...真令人悲痛...怎看也只像LINUX是WINDOWS的附帶品...只是用來給人DEL.

為何我們不能做走個APPLE路線的LINUX?做一個桌面能達到企業級使用,軟硬件一條龍供應的LINUX?
Lotus Project(蓮花計劃)就是一這路線的計劃,軟件使用SUSE作為核心,全以QT程式接口(KDE,Opera)為開發.
配以VIA Nano Netbook/Nettop平台(VIA Driver全力開源),做一個定制版為軟硬件100%配合,令人眼前一亮的平台呢?
Apple走的路線是COOL,但一點都不環保.在環保意識越來越強的發展下,怎樣我們不走"自然"路線呢?
我相信有好的程式員,好的設計師,好的市場策劃.這計劃一定能發熱發亮...

Lotus Project(蓮花計劃) 詳細資料

系統
以openSUSE架構為開發藍本 YAST2控制台核心 XFS為預設格式
優化軟/硬件兼容程度,盡量簡約 只用KDE4為桌面平台
以QT程式為主要,減少相容出錯.盡量簡化選擇,每一種用途的就管規成用一種預設程式.
例如:上網就只預設Opera...盡量以使用者的考慮為依歸,混源是LINUX的出路
只發行繁,簡中文及英文...三種預設語言.節省研發浪費,加強在優化系統及省電功能上.以配合環保形象.

硬件
低中階係以VIA Neno平台為核心,企業用可加設原生加密AES,開發Netbook,Nettop市場,主力在用戶端上.
高階以AMD平台為核心,開發HTPC(影音電腦平台)市場,主力在省電高清代替品上及家庭伺服器上.

風格
"自然"是這計劃的風格,蓮花就是出污泥而不染.我們借助LINUX的開源混亂世代下,發展一套足以代表LINUX的作品.
綠色是主調,軟硬件也要配合這風格,簡約自然美就是這計劃的特色!

以上只是個人的突發奇想,聊聊數句而已.我並沒有心對任何系統作出評價,我也沒這能耐.有錯請指正!
畢竟中國市是很大的.但就從未有系統為中國人設想.我本身不是程式員,所以以上軟硬件的難題我全不懂的.
但我有信心能在市場策劃上盡一分力量.因為我認為以後有兩種產品的紅起來,
一就是Linux,我認為只差一點.而二就是網絡電話,足以威脅傳統固網.能成為Lotus Project的資金來源.
還有的是Lotus Project其實有一套商業運作模式,可以在賣機之餘也能得到額外資助,但那當然是後話了.

聖誕節到了!祝大家MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!

[ 本帖最後由 valleybok 於 2008-12-25 23:06 編輯 ]

---

作者: 浩華    時間: 2008-12-25 11:05

其實講乜都係假

只要模擬番 WinXP 個 UI...一定好多人轉用

---

作者: K仔X    時間: 2008-12-25 11:15

我反而覺得係在於DirectX......無機打就少左一堆人採用非Windows OS既意欲....

我而家去Windows化到最後都淨一部機行Windows既理由就係要打機.....非打機用途既轉走晒啦

---

作者: foobar    時間: 2008-12-25 11:33

我其實有 D 好奇點解樓主揀 OpenSuSE, 但後來又提到 "如果可以的話就由RPM轉為預設DEB"

轉 Package Manager 同自己由頭 maintain 過晒 D packages 冇分別喎, 之所以 Ubuntu 咁快上位某程度上佢都係o係 Debian 條 unstable tree 入面 share o左好多 packages, 算係"借力打力"... 樓主先揀 Distribution 之後再轉 Package Manager 好似有少少"事倍功半"喎

---

作者: oo0t0oo    時間: 2008-12-25 11:39

linux既通病就係d軟件, 好多分支, 唔夠通一, 對於好似我梗普通用戶嚟講, 唔會同你下下都睇一大偏野野先去安個軟件. 有時d軟件, 只要版本上有d唔同, 個用法就已經有好大分別, 同d軟件既相互依賴性太強喇. (相對win)
-------------------------------------------
雖然我都繼續學用linux.

---

作者: samiux    時間: 2008-12-25 11:55



Ubuntu has contribute to Linux kernel.  Ubuntu kernel is different to Debian kernel.  Ubuntu also develops some utilities for her distribution that also suit for other distributions.

Ubuntu has Ubuntu (i.e. Gnome), Kubuntu (i.e. KDE) and Xubuntu (i.e. Xfc) as well as Edubuntu (for students).

Choice is the most advantage of Linux distributions.  Developers can make different kind of Linux for different area.  Therefore, we have Linux based router distros, Linux based firewall distros, Linux based IDS and so on.  Choice means freedom.

Linux has no official support to users.  The support is from communities.  If you want commercial support, you can get it from some vendors, such as IBM, HP, Novell, Red Hat and Ubuntu etc.

We should not treat Linux as Windows.  Linux has her market.  Linux is for clever persons.  Linux is for professionals.  There are many people (including governments, schools, and home users) in the world that using Linux.  Hong Kong is very special that not many computer users know or use Linux.

I have a distribution that based on Ubuntu namely Lambda Linux which is in Traditional Chinese by default.  You can study it at http://www.samiux.com

Finally, Linux is Linux.  Windows is Windows.  Apple is Apple.  They have different market and users.  Please do not treat them as one.  Choice is the advantage in Linux world.

We love Linux.

[ 本帖最後由 samiux 於 2008-12-25 11:59 編輯 ]

---

作者: foobar    時間: 2008-12-25 12:16



其實好多人都以為係, 所以都有唔少人整個 Window Manager / Desktop Environment 整到成個 Windows 咁 好可惜, Windows o既強項並不在佢個 UI, 你整到一模一樣只係慳o左個 User 學新 UI o既時間, 但最大問題係 Applications   你有 Windows 個型但行唔到 Windows Applications 對你想用 "同用 Windows 一樣" 呢個 point 黎吸納o個班 User 未必有乜吸引力

---

作者: foobar    時間: 2008-12-25 12:22



唔在於 DirectX 定唔 DirectX o既, 最大問題係 D PC Game Publisher 只會照顧最大個 Market - 依家係 Windows 囉, 因為要o係 Windows 上面 Run 所以佢地先揀 DirectX o者... PS3 / Wii o個 D 唔用 DirectX 咪一樣整到 Game 出黎, 到你個 Market 有返咁上下大你慌 D PC Game Publisher 唔會轉用 OpenGL 其實講到 Game 呢個問題唔好話 Linux 啦, 連 OS X 都冇 Game Support, 你等到一日唔係 Microsoft 獨大o既時候 D Game Publisher 就會寫 D Cross Platform o既 Game 架啦

---

作者: samiux    時間: 2008-12-25 12:35



Agree!  

By the way, there are some free and paid Linux games in the world.  Some of them are 3D FPS games.

Games packages for Debian-like :
http://www.playdeb.net/available_games.html

Live DVD for Games :
http://live.linux-gamers.net/?s=games

Enjoy!  

---

作者: foobar    時間: 2008-12-25 12:48



其實 OSS Software 多分支我覺得係俾多個選擇 D Advanced User o者, 同 Linux 本身係冇關係架, 就算 Windows 都有好多 3rd party programs 係咁, 好似話 archive program 有人用 Winzip, 有人用 Winrar, 我自己用 7zip 咁, 都係個個唔同啦. 對普通用戶黎講個 Distribution 幫佢地揀定o左其中一個 Package 其實都唔係好大問題, 我自己用 Ubuntu 就覺得其實好多本來要睇一大篇o野先裝到o既野其實都已經有 Package, 唯一唔好就係我估唔到應該裝邊個 (比如話原來裝 flashplugin-nonfree 就已經幫我搞掂個 Flash Player ). 呢個係 Documentation 或者個 Community 大家 Work 開個方法問題多 D...

唔同版本用法已經有好大分別呢個都係一 D D Software o者, 我都可以話 Office 2003 同 Office 2007 用法好大分別 至於 D 軟件相互依賴性強係因為 Unix 個哲學係做好多細細但每個都好精o既 Program 黎做o野o者, 我自己就覺得某程度上好過 Windows 吓吓都要搵 3rd party program 喎

不過講黎講去都係大家都會跟多數人用o個 D o野, 因為咁樣出問題都唔係自己問題, 係大家一齊有問題

---

作者: W君    時間: 2008-12-25 12:59


Linux is for clever persons.  Linux is for professionals.
呢到要小心D
好多MS派係到,咁講野會比人圍

---

作者: samiux    時間: 2008-12-25 13:20



An advertising stated that clever customers have choice and they will choose the products that suit them.

Linux is based on Unix standard.  Unix is a powerful, well-defined and well-designed operating system in 50s.  50s product still alive in modern world.  See ....  Professional!

---

作者: valleybok    時間: 2008-12-25 13:48


選用openSUSE的原因無他的,就是一個完整的控制台YAST...其實係好重要...
因為欠缺這件東西,對使用者來說是很麻煩,但我又很欣賞DEB的管理套件...
所以只能用"如果可以的話"這沒有必要性的說話.
還有我認為openSUSE架構上很完整,完善支援XFS,不需外掛...
腳本上也是最有條理...技術上也有很多進取地方

[ 本帖最後由 valleybok 於 2008-12-25 14:11 編輯 ]

---

作者: valleybok    時間: 2008-12-25 13:51


我也知道各系統有各的道路,所以我後面也有說(但是都是後話啦)...
我只不過認為道路不是天定的,是人行的...我不想有廠方將LINUX攪成TOY一樣
抹殺LINUX的潛力

---

作者: snoopy11hk    時間: 2008-12-25 14:13

Linux 有太多 distribution, 無 commercial software 呢一條己經係死罪

---

作者: foobar    時間: 2008-12-25 14:21



Sorry 問 D 低能問題, 因為我真係未用過 OpenSuSE

XFS 係指 X Font Server 定 XFS Filesystem?

---

作者: foobar    時間: 2008-12-25 14:29



點會冇 commercial software 呢, 只不過大部分都係 server 方面o既o者。 更何況有冇人寫 commercial software 罪不在 Linux, 只係 D commercial software vendor 覺得無 so 所以先至唔寫o者, 呢個都係雞先定蛋先o既問題 - 有 market 自然有 software, 有 software 自然有 market

再者, 大家要用 Linux 做 productivity use 最想要o既講黎講去咪又係 Microsoft Office 呢個 commercial software

---

作者: samiux    時間: 2008-12-25 14:37



Agreed!  

There are many commercial Linux softwares for desktop and server in the world.  Please Google, thanks.

---

作者: snoopy11hk    時間: 2008-12-25 14:41


PS for linux plz
MS office for linux plz
MS MSN for linux plz

---

作者: samiux    時間: 2008-12-25 14:42



Debian has a similar tools a Yast namely Apt and it also have GUI and text mode as Yast.

---

作者: samiux    時間: 2008-12-25 14:47



PS? Photoshop?  Gimp is.
MS Office? OpenOffice, StarOffice, KOffice and Sympthony are.
MS MSN?  Pidgin, aMSN and etc.

However, it is not saying Linux's should be 100% compatible with Windows.  They are different Operating System.  Be keep in mind.  

---

作者: foobar    時間: 2008-12-25 14:58



Photoshop for linux 機會唔係冇, 曾幾何時真係出過 Photoshop for SunOS (Photoshop 3.0 年代應該未叫 Solaris), 而且到今時今日 Creative Suite 都仲有 Windows 同 OS X 版, 我諗佢 D Code 至少都有預 cross OS, 只要 Adobe 覺得有利可圖 (即係 Linux 個 Market 夠大), 佢地絕對地有可能出 Creative Suite for Linux

至於 Microsoft o野嘛, 你話呢?

---

作者: foobar    時間: 2008-12-25 15:04



唔係人人接受 Alternatives 架, 唔就手就係唔就手, 某程度上就好似有一部現成 Windows IIS o既 Server 要 Admin 一樣, 大家都係 Web Server, 但有得俾我揀我真係寧願用 Linux + Apache

---

作者: samiux    時間: 2008-12-25 15:38



If you are using Linux, you may use Linux softwares no matter it is alternative to Windows' or not.  Linux is Linux.  Windows is Windows.  Why Windows users always mixed them up?

In my opinion, Linux SHOULD NOT be 100% compatible with Windows.  But she should compatible with Windows in some degree in general.

---

作者: valleybok    時間: 2008-12-25 16:08


XFS Filesystem,SUSE開機直接支援不需另間/boot做ext3

[ 本帖最後由 valleybok 於 2008-12-25 16:10 編輯 ]

---

作者: valleybok    時間: 2008-12-25 16:10


XGL for windows plz
XMB for windows plz
XFS for windows plz

windows的使用者不用勉強來,
我的目標不是要打造一個WINDOWS
而是打造一個更優WINDOWS的桌面系統

[ 本帖最後由 valleybok 於 2008-12-25 16:13 編輯 ]

---

作者: valleybok    時間: 2008-12-25 16:11


APPLE一樣跟WINDOWS係樣樣都唔同...但有樣野唔同就係~佢桌面比WINDOWS更就手..所以佢掂左~

[ 本帖最後由 valleybok 於 2008-12-25 16:15 編輯 ]

---

作者: valleybok    時間: 2008-12-25 16:14


其實我都有諗過用Debian做系統原型,但...在設計上要發很大功夫才能達到SUSE所開發的效果

---

作者: foobar    時間: 2008-12-25 16:17



我唔係話兩者要 compatible, 只係想講出有時 alternatives 未必滿足到其他人o既習慣或需要。 只要 Linux 個 market share 係夠 significant, commercial software 絕對有機會 (MS o個 D 就難講 D) port 過黎 Linux 黎滿足大家, 而唔係話一定要人地用 alternatives 咁o者

---

作者: foobar    時間: 2008-12-25 16:29



明白... 依家呢一代o既 Linux 基本上都 support 用唔同類型o既 root filesystem 直接 boot 架? 我依家用緊呢部 Ubuntu 個 root 係 jfs, 我以前都用過 md software raid1 行 reiserfs 做 Debian 個 root, 兩部都係因為懶所以一個 partition 行晒, 冇獨立 boot partition

獨立 boot partition so far 只係個 root o係 LVM / software raid5 入面時先至係必要 (因為個 kernel file 有機會分散o係超過一隻 Hard Disk)? 否則我見依家 D distribution (除o左 Debian 同 Ubuntu 我仲有用過 CentOS) 都係用 initrd, 冇獨立 boot partition 其實都冇問題

---

作者: samiux    時間: 2008-12-25 16:58



I don't think Windows desktop is good as it is very complicated.  I  vote for Gnome as it is clean and clear.

---

作者: valleybok    時間: 2008-12-25 18:17


你講都有道理,其實在LINUX上任何可能都係可能,我並不排除任何套件的優越性,
只是看技術人員對於那個套件比較熟識而已吧

[ 本帖最後由 valleybok 於 2008-12-25 18:18 編輯 ]

---

作者: valleybok    時間: 2008-12-25 18:19


這個我認同,我自己也正在使用GNOME為主要桌面

---

作者: samiux    時間: 2008-12-25 18:24



Ubuntu has some modified distros for media centre.  Linux has a software for VoIP (you can refer to my blog).

KDE is common in Europe but not in USA and Asia, for your information.

[ 本帖最後由 samiux 於 2008-12-25 18:41 編輯 ]

---

作者: foobar    時間: 2008-12-25 18:43



未必駛自己識 programming o既, 如果有 plan 有 connection 的話識搵錢 / 搵人返黎就夠 但至少傾落 valleybok 兄都係 Linux 老手   只係o係做 customized distribution 上實際經驗未及 samiux 兄o者

或者我又八吓, 其實 valleybok 兄依家仲係o係概念階段定係已經著手做緊o野?

---

作者: samiux    時間: 2008-12-25 18:52



I have no idea if valleybok wants to make money from his customized distro or not.   If yes, he may interested in my projects.  

---

作者: daemongmong    時間: 2008-12-25 19:57

現在的桌面Linux，以我使用Xubuntu為例，始終仍有很多不足地方：
1. 如果使用舊LCD屏幕，Xubuntu辨識不到該屏幕，如果不設定xorg.conf，屏幕只有640x480像素。
2. 播放VCD，無論使用Mplayer或Totem，也不能分開左右聲道。
3. Openoffice.org開啟不到SCIM，要安裝某軟件包後才可以。

---

作者: valleybok    時間: 2008-12-25 20:42


首先這題目是叫做突發奇想~很明顯現在還只是概念階段,
LINUX老手我絕對唔係~永遠我都只不過係一個USER~
還有個POST己說明我不是一個程式員,更對程式這東西不懂.
我只能在市場策劃上可以貢獻我的勞力
還有為何要用openSUSE絕對只是個人選擇問題,
任何套件都有優有缺的,我的奇想只以個人主觀為據.
最後是我的計劃資金來源和POST說的一樣,
我認為靠網絡電話為主要收入更為實際,相關的事宜亦有進行.

還有跟大家傾計~我受教很多~我始終沒有編程經驗...令人發笑了 請見諒

[ 本帖最後由 valleybok 於 2008-12-25 20:44 編輯 ]

---

作者: samiux    時間: 2008-12-25 21:16



1) It is the problem of xorg as it cannot detect old monitor correctly.  However, it detects new monitor very well.
2) You can install gxine to watch VCDs.
3) No such problem at my side - Gnome under Lambda Linux.  May be it is a problem of Xfce.

[ 本帖最後由 samiux 於 2008-12-25 21:22 編輯 ]

---

作者: computer1975    時間: 2008-12-25 22:07

你個Software Project目標好大，不過置換整個package system都好大工程。

來個簡單少少

有有考慮過用openSUSE Build Service做Lotus Project?
https://build.opensuse.org/

P.S. 我未用過Build Service

---

作者: cake    時間: 2008-12-26 15:08


其實講來講去
我覺得linux就是冇一種好特別的desktop應用
例如mac，就是用來做graphic
window$就是玩game, doc
就連以前的BeOS,最初的idea是mutilmedia
所以linux比人的印象就係server,亦都好成功
係desktop就冇乜特別，可以用，但d人會問：點解要用？平？老番都唔使錢

所以，我覺得，除非有一班非常利害的marketing 人去promote
同有一種好special application
唔係的話，linux 係desktop好難出頭
就好似只要有一隻好game
佢只係係wii有，d人為左玩，幾貴都買一樣
如果隻game係只有linux玩到，幾難裝我估d人都唔怕

ps: 我自己係99% linux desktop user

[ 本帖最後由 cake 於 2008-12-26 15:12 編輯 ]

---

作者: foobar    時間: 2008-12-26 15:51



其實相對黎講依家都唔少人至少知道有 Linux 呢一樣o野, 尤其今年 D netbook 有得俾人揀 Linux / XP version 令 Linux 個名終於o係大眾層面浮出己經算好好

不過真係要有 killer app 再加 marketing 配合先有用, 冇 killer app 的話齋宣傳個效果好快就會消失, 甚至會有反效果 "哦, 我用過啦, 車, 都唔好用o既" 之類

---

作者: botherguy    時間: 2008-12-26 15:54

我自己就用左ubuntu 2日 , 就轉用番winxp...
主要原因係用唔到 ipod touch (Apple 又唔出 linux itunes version!!!)
linux 唔support 我個 scanner
用 totem / vlc 睇 movie 冇得set audio 2.1 output
nokia PC suite 又唔 support
最後就係 office 問題, doc, ppt 走晒位 (even msttcorefont installed)
flash in firefox cpu usage higher than windows

加上唔想用 dual OS...
所以都係用番 windows

如果唔係以上既問題, ubuntu / linux 就真係幾好用, Security 幾好, 我最鐘意就係mount drive 要入password

[ 本帖最後由 botherguy 於 2008-12-26 15:57 編輯 ]

---

作者: cake    時間: 2008-12-26 16:34


但我想問問你
如果有一個好好玩的game
或者有一個好好用的browser
你會唔會咁快bye bye?

---

作者: licgfg    時間: 2008-12-26 17:46


如果真係linux only,咁可能會dual os既
不過玩厭左既話都係會荒廢
正如之前我裝osx86,搞左好鬼多野
但玩2玩都係會番去vista
始終太多用開既野係windows果度
其他os代替唔到

---

作者: botherguy    時間: 2008-12-26 22:57

仲有唔知點解ubuntu (Gnome) 個GUI 好似慢過 Windows XP 咁
另外, CPU usage 又高...

---

作者: corvus    時間: 2008-12-27 00:36     標題: 回覆 46# 的帖子

You are comparing an old OS released on 2001 to a new OS released on 2008.

---

作者: corvus    時間: 2008-12-27 00:46



只要有心可以慢慢搵到alternative:
1. ipod touch
我自己未試過, 但songbird目標係replace itunes

2. movie
multimedia我自己都冇用過

3. Office
用家脫離唔到MS product真係冇計. 唯有係部Windows機同時安裝MS Office及go-oo, 逐步migrate

4. Flash
請去投訴Adobe. Flash for Linux唔support hardware acceleration.

---

作者: sk2k    時間: 2008-12-27 01:08


so what.. 而家講緊o既係 d 人轉唔轉用 linux 問題, xp 仍然係主流 os, 咁當然係作為比較的一個基礎.
咁多人仲用緊 01 年的 xp, 你都吹佢唔脹, 就算連 M$ 自己都改變唔到, ubuntu 可以嗎 ???

---

作者: fatlam    時間: 2008-12-28 03:41

其實系我們中了太深的ms毒.還有學校教學也偏向一方.

[ 本帖最後由 fatlam 於 2008-12-28 03:41 編輯 ]

---

作者: computer1975    時間: 2008-12-28 15:10



轉用Xubuntu是用xfce。還有好多WM是light weight - icewm (EEEPC用個）, blackbox, fluxbox, fvwm2

睇你有無心去研究？有冇時間？

其實有些無謂services不用可以關閉：OpenSSH

---

作者: 無名忍者    時間: 2008-12-28 15:33


我用Unbuntu, 都有D地方覺得不足
1.用FIREFOX , 開太多page and 睇youtube,會無LALA死左, 而且speed 比係用win xp 慢

2.桌面D ico 太大, 又唔知係邊度SET

---

作者: toylet    時間: 2008-12-28 20:25

提示: 作者被禁止或刪除 內容自動屏蔽

---

作者: lazyfai    時間: 2008-12-28 21:05

哈哈，Linux only (on computer) 都唔係話咁難o者，睇你識唔識變通，屋企現在同  MS 有關的只有 MSN 跟 XBox 360。

---

作者: botherguy    時間: 2008-12-28 21:36     標題: 回覆 51# 52# 的帖子

見到KDE / Xfce d screenshots, not my cup of tea
用落firefox 反應真係比windows 版慢好多...

[ 本帖最後由 botherguy 於 2008-12-28 21:39 編輯 ]

---

作者: daemongmong    時間: 2008-12-28 22:51

Firefox 2比較好，Firefox 3有時候右擊時會出現一併選擇context menu的選項。

---

作者: Casey    時間: 2008-12-29 02:04

開rar要command line
部份software要自已compile
行Firefox慢過Windows XP
Hardward support

---

作者: botherguy    時間: 2008-12-29 08:39



係 synaptic package manager 裝 unrar
個archive manager 就開到 *.rar

---

作者: 99bbq    時間: 2008-12-29 12:10

個GUI 唔夠user friendly
某些情況一定要去console 道設定

---

作者: lazyfai    時間: 2008-12-29 13:59

諗真D其實所有 OS 都有呢個問題...
例如 Windows 有時改 setting 要去 regedit (都唔係 user friendly 得去邊)
什至 Mac OS X 都好多時要用到 command tool 轉D settings.
只係好多人以為 "Linux = Server 用 = Console based"...

---

作者: valleybok    時間: 2008-12-29 14:02


SUSE的YaST2 設定可以有GUI畫面

---

作者: corvus    時間: 2008-12-29 14:06

都係一句, 有心用Linux既自然會慢慢搵到佢既好處.

冇心用既點都會諗到上千個藉口.

我而家都係一部Vista返工, 一部XP打機, 一部Debian上網.  冇人話邊個要replace邊個, 各取所需.

---

作者: untvb    時間: 2008-12-30 13:11

睇你要部機黎做咩既姐...
不過 linux 既 gui 真係慢過 windows ...
但係計 run 幾樣野既時候既表現, 我覺得 linux 始終好 D..

---

作者: 我係一舊雲    時間: 2008-12-30 17:12

首先我也不是針對樓主的 蓮花計劃,只是以此 "奇想" 的角度去討論一下
不過,有樓主這種想法,的確是非常好,先說一句佩服

首先 linux 並不是指整套光碟 (不論 fedora, suse, centos), 而是那個 kernel,什麼也可以加在 kernel 上運作,最後就是各套各有特色的 linux

先說 Ubuntu 的 Gnome 及KDE
雖然樓主說法很正確,此點正是 windows 所謂的優化處理,可是一般之下,只是將此兩套 window manager 放在同一套碟之內,並不代表樓主所講沒有優化
有開發的人喜歡 Gnome,也有喜歡 KDE 的,此點正正是 linux 的 open source 優點,喜歡用什麼也可以在 linux 上運作, 而 Ubuntu 只是集合了 Gnome 上的軟件,而 Kbuntu 只是集合了 KDE 的軟件,並不代表有或沒有優化
說到底,可在不同 window manager 上的軟件,在 linux 世界內有非常之多,光碟內都只是其中一部份 (看看 fedora updates 內的東東比光碟內多數倍,但也只是其中一部份),但一兩隻 DVD 也不能收錄所有,Ubuntu 及 Kbuntu 只是將其分開,那當然比一般合在一起的可用軟件為多,看上去就好像比其他較好,再者來自 debian (deb) 之下,眾多高手寫成的軟件就更多更豐富

同樣Gnome 及KDE 所支援的語言,是以 il18n 及 il10n 組成,而 il18n 及 il10n 也能支援各不同的 linux, 那根本已經解決了語言上的問題,而樓主只說什麼繁/簡/英等三個語言,給本人的感覺,似乎有點膚淺,難道一套新開發的 linux 只有中國人/台彎人等才可使用??
然而, il18n 及 il10n 在一開始就已經想得較遠,以一套系統,支援全球所有語言,不論中英文,法文,德文,甚至其他語言,都能支援,都能以按一鍵就可輕鬆完整地轉換,而不像 windows 一樣,有多套不同語言的 windows (如英文 / 繁體中文 / 簡體中文 / 日文 / 韓文 / 法文 / 德文 .........etc)

---

作者: lazyfai    時間: 2008-12-31 15:01

唔只咁添呀，國際化還包括火星文/世界語，不過應該冇人真係用。
文字又可以左至右，右至左都得，D字連埋晒都得。（ eg. 埃及文/少數民族文字）
不過我諗樓主想講中/英文版本 “比較測試多D" o者，唔代表冇其他 languages 既...

---

作者: leung1610    時間: 2009-1-1 01:11

對於我黎講LINUX(UBUNTU), OSX 同WIN都無咩大分別
用黎用去都只係上網、聽歌、睇片同做文書工作
不過可惜係朋友都用WIN, 佢地用MS OFFICE問題就黎啦
佢地讀OFFICE文件出黎既格式同我好多地方都唔一樣, 咁點算??
所以做文書唯有用WIN了...
最近用WINE + OFFICE黎解決 WORD 同 PPT格式, 可惜成日HANG機...
我外行人用UBUNTU覺得好方便, 要用咩都有得選擇安裝唔駛自己上網找, 唔駛打一大堆指令
有好多老手會覺得我唔鍾意打指令無料到, 但試問有咩新手會覺得打指令好玩??
UBUNTU用.DEB既格式黎安裝程式
我覺得係好好用, 最少唔駛煩打指令, 但其他LINUX安裝文件又唔同格式了...
我覺得有必要統一左佢, 最少我呢D新手唔會因為找不到.DEB而感到煩惱, 和打一大堆指令

---

作者: corvus    時間: 2009-1-1 10:12



Why don't you just use synaptic to install everything? Installing from .deb results a security risk.

---

作者: leung1610    時間: 2009-1-1 13:07


呢個我明白, 只不過有時synaptic無包既程式就要用.DEB
例如我用realplayer11睇rmvb時就要用到.DEB, 當然有其他格式可以裝同有其他方法睇
但統一格式會比較方便, 有埋sources code俾人DL仲好

---

作者: push    時間: 2009-1-1 16:05



唔明, 點唯之  linux gui 慢過 windows? 你係指邊方面呢?

---

作者: corvus    時間: 2009-1-2 14:03



If you cannot find the required package in the official repository, try to search for 3rd party (and famous) repo. It is still better than installing from .deb IMHO.

Sometimes you don't know what is inside a .deb package, and which distro it is designed for.

---

作者: ltsp    時間: 2009-1-2 15:49



以前我都玩過OSX86，又係搞左好多野，但當時主要都係要boot返入windows用，
但後來真係買左部Mac，用耐左，越來越順手，先發覺原來好多野之前以為要Windows先做到or Windows就手d既功能，Mac OS X都做到，無論係軟件同shortcut key都係。我而家可以95%時間用Mac OS X了。

Linux都係一樣，要花時間摸都會做到好多取代Windows既野，不過Linux太多suppose係基本既功能都要靠commandline，個GUI操作好多細節上亦冇Windows / Mac OS X咁細心，作為Desktop OS難免俾人感覺冇咁就手好用。

但樓主要做到Apple咁唔簡單，Mac OS X雖然係Unix底，但OSX唔係單單一個window manager咁簡單，佢將Classic Mac OS 同 NeXT既技術都放埋落去，有完整成熟既自家framework, API，不但只對End User，連Developer開發既experience都照顧周到。

---

作者: 我係一舊雲    時間: 2009-1-3 20:05

再續討論蓮花計劃

基於 linux 原只有 kernel, 什麼也可加在 kernel 之上運作,而 linux 的 free 不是免費,只是開放源代碼,這正正是 linux 的優點,當然世上沒完美,有時這個優點也會是缺點

由於 linux 是 open source,所以什麼也可以在 kernel 上運作,最後就是變成各有特色的不同分發版本,那就是 fedora, centos, suse.......etc.. 各分發版本都有著不同定義下,而配上不同的軟件 package, 在 open source 下也可以自行研發,如 rpm, 由 red hat 研發的 package manager (最初的 linux 是只有 .tar 的源軟件包, 所以 slockware 就是以此為基本), 又如 suse 自行開發的安裝系統, 又如 yum, 原本只在 yellow dog 這套 linux 之上使用,open source 的力量,轉移至其他也可以使用 (yum = yellow dog update manager),這些都是 open source 下的優點
也正是這個open source, linux 卻難以統一,變成不同特色的分發版本,結果令初學者不明所以,也有不同的老手說自己使用中的較好,加上了自己的偏好,這也是干擾初學者的核心問題之一

---

作者: samiux    時間: 2009-1-3 20:19



In my opinion, beginners can try Live CD/DVD on some of the distributions (such as Ubuntu, fedora and etc) and experience the power of Linux before studying and using it.  Experience users can provide their guide to them for choosing the suitable distribution(s).

In addition, if you are being expert in one of the distributions, you can very easy to conquer to other distributions.

---

作者: 我係一舊雲    時間: 2009-1-3 20:28

"有人會問Netbook開始的時候也是自帶Linux,現眼下也失敗了...原因何在呀?
我認為...根本沒一間廠認為桌面Linux是真正有技術有潛力的系統...
好像ASUS,Acer的弄到Linux像玩具多於像系統,HP就更離普,自帶SUSE但沒有技術支援.更像亂找一個上來一樣.
怎樣沒一間廠認認真真對待Linux的...真令人悲痛...怎看也只像LINUX是WINDOWS的附帶品...只是用來給人DEL."

樓主這樣說,個人感覺上覺得樓主本身也有一點先入為主
說什麼 linux 好像是 windows 的附屬品,個人角度若樓主本身並沒先入為主的以 windows 為主系統的想法,根本不會覺得 linux 只是被 delete 的附屬品
個人雖不喜歡 microsoft 這樣對待 windows 這個軟件在市場上的策略,無疑 windows 本身的好處,linux 有些是追不上的,當然與 open source 有關,因無法統一技術,對什麼支援也是困難;由此並非容易找出一套很直接的支援法則,結果就如樓主所講,現時的 netbook 上的問題

同時樓主也提過,為何不如 apple 一樣?
linux 是 open source, 卻不一定要免費,從 GNU / GPL 當中已經提及過,沒提定要免費發放的,正如 suse 若不是 novell 的收購,download 下來都有使用限期
若有人以眾多分發版本下,選出特有而重新開發,給其所有支援等,不就是等同 suse enterprise / red hat enterprise 嗎?

open source 也有好處,當發覺有問題,或有安全上的漏洞的話,以現時網絡的力量,很多高手會出手解決問題,解決問題的速度相當之強大及快速; 相比 macos 或 windows, 以單一開發商,再強大也及不上網絡的力量

若制定一個新系統的話,卻不以 linux 的 open source 發放,雖然是可解決了某程度上的技術支援問題,可是反過來不又是變了另一套 windows 或 macos 一樣嗎?


去到最後,樓主所講的蓮花計劃,雖是非常好的提議,換一個角度,不就是重新建立另一套 susu 相似的東東嗎? 不就是另一套 macos 嗎? (macos 是以 bsd 為核心, linux 多數以 system v 為核心, 也有以 bsd 為核心的 linux 呢)
再一提,樓主所講的蓮花計劃,實際上已經存在,如 asus eeepc 所選的 linpus linux, 香港人不願花錢買的 pclinuxos (pclinuxos 最新是 pclinux os 2009, http://www.pclinuxos.com/ ),以個人好有限所知, pclinuxos 已經正是樓主所講的蓮花計劃相似的東東了,或許是樓主不太了解,又或並不是太多香港人認識,到底要錢買,沒有免費download 版本罷了

---

作者: 我係一舊雲    時間: 2009-1-3 20:34

再一提,基於 open source 之下

當你的技術提高某一程度,其實可以自行調整 kernel 的支援,更改 kernel 的設定,甚至針對 kernel 對硬件的支援,真真正正去優化一個系統,可是 windows / macos 就沒有可能了

(別說技術上困難,以及未到此階段的人較多,用不著這個功能,用不到是個人問題,並不是沒有提供,就有如 windows 及 macos ,根本完全沒有提供這方面的資訊)

---

作者: samiux    時間: 2009-1-3 21:23



The original design of the netbook (e.g. One Laptop per Child project) is not for the matured societies (like HK or US).  It is designed for the 3rd world.

Does Microsoft provides support for home users when they bought a notebook?   Supports from Windows system always by third parties, like books and educational centers.

Citizens of the modern world used to use Windows as their desktop and they have money to consume.  Therefore, when they saw netbook, they would delete the Linux OS and reinstall Windows system.  It is very easy to understand.

In order to keep the cost or price low, netbook for the 3rd world should be installed Linux.  So, you may say that Linux is for poor people.  In some kind of views, it is true.  Like me, I am very poor, I cannot afford a copy of licensed Windows system/server.  I use Linux and make my own home network with some out-dated hardwares.  So that I can learn IT and solved my problem in the area of computing.  Linux enriched my life and mind.

Marketing is for making money.  Some hardware vendors do not foresee Linux can make money.  You can find out that the most biggest Linux vendor - RedHat makes a lot of money on Linux.  Vendors need time to educate as well as users.

Just waiting for the day comes!  Be patient!

[ 本帖最後由 samiux 於 2009-1-3 21:24 編輯 ]

---

作者: corvus    時間: 2009-1-4 01:12

The main problem is that many people still don't realize that they are being locked-in by MS. It is just too easy to install pirated copies of MS desktop products.

If the 'MS black screen' incident extend to HK, the situation will be better.

How many people will spend $1000 to buy a Windows and even more to buy an MS Office for their desktop+notebook+netbook (3 copies!)

---

作者: samiux    時間: 2009-1-4 01:37



I have read an article stating that Microsoft is planning to charge users per usage (per hour basis) of her products.  Some comments stated that this plan will kill Bill.  Some of them stated that they will switch to Mac but no one mentioned Linux.  Funny?

I don't really know Cloud Computing is good or not.

By the way, Microsoft's planning will overcome the problem of pirated copies.

[ 本帖最後由 samiux 於 2009-1-4 01:38 編輯 ]

---

作者: Gundamdriver    時間: 2009-1-4 01:48     標題: 回覆 78# 的帖子

That patent has been rejected.

http://www.neowin.net/news/main/ ... get-the-green-light

---

作者: Gundamdriver    時間: 2009-1-4 01:59


Maybe you are right if and only if you are talking about developing native Mac OS X applications.

I have been angry with Apple for years on application development, why? I am still using Tiger, and the company force me to upgrade to Leopard to get latest version of JDK. Wow! When Windows and Linux users can download and install JDK, Mac users have to wait (even beg) for Apple to release updates, and not to mention the possibility of Apple updating JDK for Tiger users. Without Java, I couldn't play with a lot of programming tools from Sun, such as J2ME.

I also tried to do programming in C on Mac OS X, that was painful too. First, you can't install GCC only, and you are forced to install the bloated Xcode. After I have waited the computer for minutes to install the IDE, I tried to write a "Hello World", but it failed to compile, why? Becoz the header file, stdio.h, is missing! Wow, Xcode occupied GBs of my hard disk and it didn't even give me such a standard file. Based on FreeBSD? Based on UNIX? Do you know which language do UNIX and Linux users use most (or very frequently)? C! I can install GCC and C libraries on my Debian box within minutes, and I can simply install Dev-C++ on my Windows box. Why Mac can't make things simpler?

Besides Java and C, I have to develop a system as an assignment with Oracle Forms. Are there any tools for Mac?

Actually I have mentioned this before, but did any of you notice that?

[ 本帖最後由 Gundamdriver 於 2009-1-4 02:04 編輯 ]

---

作者: samiux    時間: 2009-1-4 02:27



Thanks for your information.

Take time to have a look :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x35AIGJaM5M&eurl=http://samiux.wordpress.com/lambda/&feature=player_embedded

[ 本帖最後由 samiux 於 2009-1-4 02:29 編輯 ]

---

作者: samiux    時間: 2009-1-4 02:52



I do know that Linux is developed by programmers and developed for programmers.

---

作者: foobar    時間: 2009-1-4 03:58



I can understand the Java platform being unavailable on Mac is what makes you most upset.  But I think Sun has to blamed for this as well. The wonderful Windows port of Java come from Sun and not Microsoft.  Sun created it because they have no choice but do it themselves or risk losing the WHOLE client side Java app market (Microsoft was eager to do that themselves and you saw their Embrace and Extend tricks).  Actually as now Sun has dual licensed their JDK thing, people did port the openjdk to OS X, just with X11 and no cocoa/carbon support.  Why not Sun do the dirty work for OS X as they did Windows?  And more ridiculous was that Sun said something like "We'll put Java on iPhone"?!  I think you could suggest Sun to spend sometime to maintain and release a Cocoa port for OS X as they did with Windows.  I don't think your Mac is as locked down as the iPhone to prevent you installing the Sun release of Java

For the gcc bloat, I wonder why you didn't compare Xcode with Visual Studio on Windows.  At least doing a "port search gcc" shows that a whole slew of version is available via the Macports, so I guess there must be at least some precompiled binaries available without the Xcode thing.  You would still need to extract the headers from the Xcode package using something like Pacifist though.

After all, I think the software availability thing is more a problem of the software vendor selecting the platform to reach their audience instead of the problem of the platform itself.  I feel sorry but your response make me feel no different than someone saying he is getting angry because Microsoft Office is not available for Linux and can only stuck with Open Office, thus dismissing Linux as a whole.

[ 本帖最後由 foobar 於 2009-1-4 04:18 編輯 ]

---

作者: samiux    時間: 2009-1-4 05:50



To maintain a project (any kind of Linux project) needs a lot of investment (such as time and money).  If it is a Linux distribution project, it requires a hugh investment for updating, upgrading and security patching.  Manpower also needs to manage and organize.  The leader should be a Linux expert in some areas, such as programming, security and etc.  Leadership is also required for the project leader.

I think this kind of project is not very easy to start if the project leader has no such kind of advantages.  Just my opinion.

---

作者: Gundamdriver    時間: 2009-1-4 14:50     標題: 回覆 83# 的帖子

If Apple managed to maintain its own Java port, it is their responsibility to make sure the software is patched. From I knew, Apple doesn't allow JRE (or other similar software act as a layer for communication between applications and system) becoz $teve doesn't like Java. Ok, perhaps iPhone doesn't have enough power to run Java, but what about the computers? Why can't Apple release its own JDK for all versions of OS X?

You have mentioned X11 and MacPorts. Well, I hate them, to be more precise, I hate to install them on Mac. Why? If X11 is required, why don't I simply work on Linux? I can install X11 on my Linux box, and if I want to, I can even download experimental builds and try them. I can also have APT, which inspired MacPorts and Fink, on Debian or Debian-base Linux distro., why should I have the same system on Mac?

I haven't tried t write "Hello World" in ANSI C with Visual Studio, I would like someone to tell me if VS is similar to Xcode that those standard C header files are missing. But even if VS failed to work, I can still have Dev-C++, and I am 100% sure I can write ANSI C programs on (and compile) it. What about Mac? I would be pleased if someone could tell me building an environment on Mac to write C/ C++ without using the bloated Xcode.

Up to this moment, I see no advantages of using Mac for application development. Apple is just trying to put sugar coat on its aluminum cages and lock you in it.

---

作者: foobar    時間: 2009-1-4 15:29



I didn't think Microsoft welcomed the Sun Java port at the beginning as well, otherwise why the lawsuit between Sun and MS regarding Java on Windows?  And if sun provided a dmg for OS X Java you would simply ditch the Apple port, and maybe Sun should just seek injunction for Apple's own Java port as they did with MS

The X11 I mentioned is for the port of OpenJDK, I guess there is a pretty high chance X11 is not required if you don't need the GUI features of Java.

I am not a developer, but for the GCC without Xcode, a simple google search shows that people do hate the Xcode thing as you do, but they do have a solution! Just "rm -rf /Developer" after installing Xcode and you are done All the headers and the required binaries are inside the system folder.  And Apple does heard its sin and make it a selectable option allowing you to install the Compiler Tools only for later Xcode package.

I don't object the point about the lock-in, everybody in the commercial world loves lock-in.  I welcome your opinion about it but it seems to me some of the problem is not as one-sided as it seems

---

作者: Gundamdriver    時間: 2009-1-4 15:55


Great, Leopard ONLY again?

---

作者: foobar    時間: 2009-1-4 16:16



Maybe, I really have no knowledge about these things, but I guess the header files are version dependent But at least they fix it, and you are free to remove the /Developer folder for Tiger or earlier releases as suggested by others.

[ 本帖最後由 foobar 於 2009-1-4 16:17 編輯 ]

---

作者: Gundamdriver    時間: 2009-1-4 16:34     標題: 回覆 88# 的帖子

Haha.

Linux rulz!

[ 本帖最後由 Gundamdriver 於 2009-1-4 16:34 編輯 ]

---

作者: foobar    時間: 2009-1-4 16:51



Linux of course rules, I guess that's the common view here I have no problem believing Linux is the BEST for low-cost server solution, and gaining ground on the mobile (I am using a Moto E6, but eager to see those Andriod phones ) and desktop end.  I actually found the GNOME desktop quite fine for daily uses so what I now wish is that more big software vendors joining the bandwagon on releasing commercial app on the Linux platform too

---

作者: hdvd-rom    時間: 2009-1-5 01:11

if you were a serious c/c++ developer, I don't think library header will give you any hard time.
although it is easier under linux/window, you only have to setup header once.

i don't really know about java under os x, but openjdk should be a solution.

---

作者: corvus    時間: 2009-1-5 14:21



People switch from Windoz to Mac because ... MS Office can run on Mac.

---

作者: foobar    時間: 2009-1-5 15:20



Lets not forget the Adobe suite too.  If these two apps are available on Linux, then Linux would be as viable as Mac to be used as my primary platform.

---

作者: valleybok    時間: 2009-1-6 11:45


感謝你的意見,無可否應,這只是我一時產生的幼稚想法,大家的意見給我學習很多.

---

作者: leung1610    時間: 2009-1-6 13:01

請問ubuntu 8.10 點樣先可以係公共圖書館上網用wifi 上佢個 freegovwifi-e ??
要選d咩??用wep-e 同埋要選邊個黎入密碼???
選leap??定其他黎入pw??

---

作者: valleybok    時間: 2009-1-7 12:00


你去到個D地方拎份WIFI小冊子,有晒NAME同PW~上WIFI係一樣

---

作者: corvus    時間: 2009-1-7 18:01     標題: 回覆 96# 的帖子

等佢開個新topic先答啦.

---

作者: 我係一舊雲    時間: 2009-1-8 03:56



你去到公共圖書館就會搵到相關資料